So today I have Jessica Spear with me. She's an award-winning author of books for Kids and teens, including B F, F , or N R F, which is not really Friends. A Girl's Guide to Happy Friendships and Middle School Safety Goggles Advice. I love that name. But you are launching a new book this month called the phone book, which I think is so important to talk about the phone and social media and that stay safe, be smart and make the world better with the powerful device in your hand.
So Jessica, thank you so much for coming on the Real Life Momz podcast. Hey, thank you for having me, Lisa. I'm excited to chat with you. Me too. This conversation is so important. As you know, Season 5 of Real Life Momz has kind of revamped a little bit more into this self help for moms and really encouraging moms to live that life that they desire.
But I [00:01:00] wanted to have you because I just think phones and social media bring up so many feelings in parenting and ourselves that I thought it was such an important conversation for us to have. Yeah, there's, it's, you know, it's even as adult women, you know, I think we can all still experience, you know, looking at feeds and comparing ourselves and, you know, all, all that stuff.
And, you know, thinking about that in the life of a preteen, it's a lot, you know, it's a lot for teens to, to be handling right now. Yeah. So that's why I wanted to put a book out there to really unpack some of this stuff that happens online. Cause it's tricky. It's, it's not easy to navigate, you know, emotionally or socially.
No, and it's so funny, I just, I wouldn't say, I unfollowed, I was going to say unfriend, I didn't unfriend, I unfollowed somebody, just because every time I look at their feed, I felt bad about myself, and it wasn't like they were posting anything wrong, it was just that, [00:02:00] I don't know. I got a little fear of missing out.
I didn't like how I was feeling around it. Then I told my daughter, I was like, you know, just unfollow them because I just didn't feel good every time I looked at their feed. So even as adults, we can have like these awful feelings. You know, and I love that you said that because there was actually a study done that talked with teens about this and saw the effect if they did change their feed.
So this is something we can talk to our kids about. They saw, you know, really positive changes. to their mental well being when they were actively curating their feeds so if you notice, you know, what is bringing you down, what is, you know, putting you in these, these bad moods, that's one thing we can help our kids with.
We need to be changing our feed because algorithms are sometimes not looking out for our best interests. So I love that you did that. And that is definitely something I talked to my kids about. And I mentioned in the book, cause it's, it's a skill that we have to learn over time to notice.
While we're [00:03:00] on devices, how are we feeling? And we might need to shift things up if it starts to, you know, go down a rabbit hole. Yeah. And I like to look a lot of, positive quotes and positive things. I just love that positivity and manifestation. So I'm constantly searching that on purpose and like liking those things because I've heard, and you can tell me if this is true, I've heard.
That if you're searching certain types of things and scrolling through certain types of things, you'll get more of that in your feed. So I want more positivity in my feed. So that's what I do. That is 100% true. So how algorithms work is exactly like that. So they, they're noticing what we're scrolling on.
They're even noticing. So if that's what you're pausing and paying attention to, they want to keep us on our screens, so they're going to send us more of that sort of content, you know, and so where this gets tricky, you know, with, with kids and teens is say they get into, you know, a dark place. So [00:04:00] they're watching content on disordered eating or they're watching content on self harm.
That's where algorithms can start to feed them more of that stuff and get them into even a darker place. Yeah. So let's talk about this more with our kids and our families, we need to change our feed and choosing those positive things, inspiring things. You know, people who are making really positive changes in the world, you know, that's what we all need to be watching and contributing to.
So, okay. So I didn't make that up. That's great. I'm, I'm glad I figured that out. On your own. I love it. Yeah. And so what were you seeing before you wrote this book, the phone book? Like what were some things that you were dealing with social media in your own personal life and family?
Yeah. Well, I started this book. Actually during the pandemic. So at that point I had a preteen and an early teen, and we were just navigating this whole screen thing. You know, and we were all getting sucked into our screens because it was a pandemic. And I actually watched this [00:05:00] documentary, which you might've heard of called the social dilemma.
I don't know if you've seen it. Oh yeah. Not only have I seen it, but one of my daughter's friends is the girl in it. The little girl. Oh no way! Not so little anymore. Yeah. No way! I love, so I, that blew my mind because I didn't really understand kind of this behind the curtains way that technology works.
You know, and then as a mom, like, oh my gosh, I have to talk to my kids about this. And then I was like, as a writer and a social scientist, I thought, wow, All kids need to know about this, you know, so, so that just really got me curious and I just started researching all this stuff like we talked about, you know, algorithms and advertising and, you know, all these things that make us much more informed consumers of technology.
So what I like to do is write books directly for kids because you kids are so smart and I like to put the information right in their hands. So, you know, I just do. wrote this book really for preteens, because these days, you know, kids are getting [00:06:00] phones earlier and earlier. So believe it or not, you know, today, 50% of 11 year olds have a smartphone, you know, once we get to 12 and a half, 75% of 12 and a half year olds have a smartphone.
And this is trending younger and younger every year. And as a parent, I know, there's so many conversations we need to have once our kids have a connection. I mean, so I just packed all those in there, you know, so in addition to how technologies work, you know, things like stranger danger and disinformation and digital drama and cyber bullying and FOMO and all those things that are really complex and about phones.
I just wanted to share those in an age appropriate, you know, fun, interesting way with kids so they are better consumers and more informed consumers. Yeah, I love how you write because you do write for the kids and and you do research through the kids to actually figure out what you're Writing about. So yeah, I was going to say it.
Do you have you found [00:07:00] anything specific that you were surprised in your research when talking to teens or just kids in general? What is interesting is I think, you know, adults, we often have a love hate in a relationship with especially social media.
So do teens, you know, so we often think that they absolutely love it. But that's not really true. I mean, it's, it is stressful. And so I found that, you know, the teens are experiencing, you know, digital stress because they have to keep up with all this stuff, you know, so they have to stay engaged or they don't seem like a good friend.
And if they don't comment in a certain way in a timely fashion, you know, and that's just one example of the complexity of kids and teens online social life. So, so, you know, maybe when they're starting out, it's all amazing and wonderful, but then. It gets much more complex, you know, as they hit the early teens and deeper into the teens and, and I think it's tiring for kids.
You know, I was in, just as we were finishing up this last school year, I was sitting with a group of high school seniors, just, we were having a [00:08:00] chat about all this and, and they were nostalgic for the days, you know, when, when they didn't have a phone and they would be out in the street and they'd play kick the can and ghost in the graveyard and all those old.
of games we used to play. They were nostalgic for that and they felt bad for , the generation younger than them that isn't going to experience that. And I thought that was so interesting, you know, this newer generation doesn't even know anything different, but you know, the ones that, you know, are, the upper teens now, they kind of remember, you know, pre pandemic life without phones.
And yeah, they, they're, they're very mixed about the impact of their lives. There's. There's pluses, but there's a lot of tough stuff. They don't love to. Yeah, and I can see that. I mean, it's funny because for me, I have my phone. It's right here. See phone. Okay. It's here right next to me. I do feel a little naked without it, I'll be honest, but I'm not tied to it.
In fact, because of my job, I work [00:09:00] with clients, I can't have the phone ringing while I'm physically working with somebody. So I don't answer my phone a lot and I don't get back to text right away. I'm not like attached to it in that way. But what I noticed about my kids is that if someone doesn't text back or does not answer back, it's almost like an insult. It's like, Oh my God, she's mad at me. Or, Oh my God, like, what did I do wrong? I didn't realize that. I didn't realize like not answering is actually very hurtful for that group of.
Teens. Yes, it is. And that's where that pressure comes in. , and it could be, you know, oops, somebody forgot, but there's also, you know, these little ways to be a little socially aggressive sometimes on some of these things. So, so they might not be responding on purpose because maybe they actually are mad.
And so it's that ambiguity, you know, it's, it, it could be nothing, but it actually could be something. And that ambiguity is so On preteens and teens, because they they're wondering because it [00:10:00] actually really could be either one, you know, sometimes his parents were like, Oh, it's, yeah, I'm sure they just forgot, but maybe or maybe there's actually something going on there.
And they know that they've seen this play out. So they know that and then they have things like, I think it's called find your friend or something like that, where They literally can see, like, so they can say, all my friends are, I mean, I'm not doing that as an adult, like, all my friends are hanging out, you know, they're all hanging out.
Why didn't I get text? Am I not on the group chat? And I'm thinking like, wow, that is so much to navigate. I mean, first of all, group chats, I mean, talk about any privacy, right? Like, God forbid you would want to have a one on one text or conversation. That's like taboo because then you're leaving out the group like everybody has to know And then seeing friends hang out when you weren't invited It's just so much.
Yeah, it's, it's complicated. So I, I [00:11:00] feel like it, I feel a lot of empathy for teens today. I feel like, you know, these, these years are never easy, you know, ours weren't that easy, but it's much more complicated now because of all those social dynamics, yeah, the group chats, it's not easy to navigate that, people get kicked out of group chats and, sometimes it's warranted, sometimes it's not warranted.
And what does all that mean? For us, you know, when the school day was over, the school day was over, but now it's really just beginning, you know, like the phones, they, they are in connection with each other sometimes through the night, and that's another factor is, you know, I did find talking to teens that they're so tired.
They're so tired because they are up. Checking their phones, you know, so a lot of teens are up, you know, well past midnight on a school night so they're not even close to getting like the recommended eight to nine hours, you know for the teen years and that that's That's hard, too, for every other aspect of your life.
Yeah, and I'm gonna raise my hand because my [00:12:00] kids are on it. My daughter, for sure, is on it past definitely whatever you call bedtime in teenage years. I mean, I go to bed before they do, but yeah, for sure. And it's like this, fear of missing out on something. Or... Not answering and having someone think they're mad, right?
So, I think as a parent, this has been definitely, I kind of actually, I'm going to be honest, I kind of gave up on the whole social media stuff because it was just so much to navigate. I did all the, You know, you can only use this during these times when the sun goes down, you can watch TV. Like I tried, I tried.
And then I just got to the point where like, okay, at what point do I just trust my kids have conversations and then figure it out together. So I don't know if I'm the best parent, but there is a lot of guilt there because you don't know what the right answers are as a parent. [00:13:00] You don't know how to keep them safe.
Am I making a huge mistake by letting my kid have it all the time? What do you have to say to that? Oh man, I think you're in the boat with a lot of parents because, you know, the phones are buzzing all night. So obviously, you know, the vast majority of teenagers have their phones with them all night, even though the advice is, make sure the phones are not in bedrooms.
Phones are in bedrooms and they're, the kids are up very late, you know, so, so this is a, I think for, for my kids, I, I'm such like, I, I really talk a lot about sleep because I am such a firm believer in sleep. So, so in my house, I'm maybe a little more strict on trying to help them get adequate sleep because, you know, what we know from sleep studies is that the very last portion.
Sleep, you know, those last three hours are the most important because that's when we're actually taking everything we learned and we're organizing it in a way that we can actually remember it, you know, so, so for me, you know, it's a [00:14:00] little bit easier because some of my kids are so academically inclined that they're like, okay, you know, school is important to me.
This is important to me, you know, so I, it helps my learning and my, you know, academic and career goals, but I know that that argument would not work in a lot of families so, so this is a tough one for a lot of families and what I wish is that they were. I wish they had more help because right now this is all.
On the shoulders of parents, like there's, there's no help. And what I also found in researching this book, there's a lot of organizations working on this, including the United States, you know, government, so, so there's committees. In fact, there's one in the Senate commerce committee that is working on two bills.
After five years, these two bills are both dealing with kids and privacy and safety. They finally made it out of the committee, you know, and there was really intense debate for almost five years. And I was watching these, you know, as I was researching this book. So, so there is some movement here because I think we can really, as [00:15:00] a country, you know, as a world.
do better to protect our kids from a lot of this stuff online. So not only like just lack of sleep, but seeing inappropriate content, you know, violent content at very young ages, like we can do a lot better. You know, we can actually put in place some meaningful age verifications. So kids don't have to see really inappropriate
graphic content, you know, we can protect their privacy a lot more like right now. There's there's no checks on tech companies So so they're gathering so much data and Teens are seeing you a thousand on average a thousand ads a day A lot of those ads are targeted based on their very own data, so that's tough That's also another thing that teens are facing So my hope is that we will start to put some other pieces in place so this all doesn't fall on the parents because it is, it is so hard to manage.
You know, raising a teen is hard enough and then you throw this on top. Um, it's, it's, it's a no win situation right now for parents. Yeah, that seems like [00:16:00] such a huge feat because I wonder, like, how do they actually regulate that stuff? I mean, kids lie about their age all the time online so that they can get an app.
, there's nothing to say that they're not, they just changed their date of birth. Well, there's, there are ways, like, you know, there are, there are ways to verify it might require a driver's license, it might require, you know, so, so there are ways to, I know we have the technology to do this right now, it's a lot of, um, how best to do it, you know, I get also a lot of pushback from lobbying groups, but it's, you know, it's, it's more, what is the right age and how do we do this, but the, the technology is there, like we can, we can do this, you know, and I don't even know if we want to go down the porn path, you know.
But, you know, the average age that kids stumble upon pornography is, is 11, that's not healthy either, so that, and it's often by accident, maybe some sort of search, because it's so readily available but this, and this is not the same as, you know, [00:17:00] us finding a playboy magazine or something.
This is very violent graphic, non consent content that young brains are seeing. And that is so, that's so unhealthy. So I'm like. We can do better. We have to do better. We really have to do better to protect kids. And, and there's other countries that are doing much better. In fact, you know, one of the pieces I have in the book is like other laws in other countries, it's much more strict, like in a lot of Asian countries or countries in Asia, there are time limits, you know, and parents can be fined if kids go beyond these time limits.
And, you know, we wouldn't do that in this country. This country just doesn't operate that way, but it's interesting to see how other countries in the world are trying to navigate this too. And what do you find is the most concerning around safety that kids are dealing with? I feel like it a lot, yeah, because we worry about stranger danger, you know, and we worry about cyberbullying, and both of those are pretty scary, and cyberbullying actually is fairly common, [00:18:00] so, , I still feel like maybe what's the most harmful is, is content.
When I was watching some of these, you know, Senate testimonies, it was parents of kids that died during TikTok challenges and things like that. So the tech industry is one of the only industries in our country that's pretty unregulated. There is an old law, it's section 230, that protects You know, tech companies from any liability from any content posted on their site.
So therefore, like, you know, really harmful content to kids. Those companies have no liability. And so, so those stories are tragic to me. So, so believe it or not, I feel like harmful content because it's so rampant. Out there. And it's so accessible to our kids. And a lot of it is because of this, this old law on the books, um, you know, that's never been updated.
And that's, there's, that's under discussion. It's hard to do this in a country that has freedom of speech, but you know, how can we have freedom of speech, but also, you know, really not have a bunch of really harmful content out there that [00:19:00] is actually taking the lives of kids. I know that is so sad. I mean, I remember having the conversation with my kids saying, okay, there's a challenge going on, like, don't swallow the laundry detergent.
Like, what? What is? That's terrible. I know. Challenges are terrible. And there's so, there's so many of them, you know, it's just, it's, it's amazing. There's one after the other, you know, this one that they make themselves pass out, you know, like breath holding or the choking thing. And, you know, it's just, and they're young minds, and they're off in their room,
so nobody knows actually what they're up to. So yeah, tragic. Sorry to take this down. Okay. Yeah. But I mean, this is, yeah, that I'm like, we can do better. You know, we can do better. We can do better. Yeah. And if I feel like if they're, if we could somehow change that section 230, so that companies for stuff like that, especially when it's taking kids lives, there, there's no reason there's not liability there for every other [00:20:00] industry.
Like if that was a toy, an actual physical toy. You know, that would be pulled from the shelves immediately. So we're still getting there. I sometimes, make the, the correlation. Like, so the cars were invented in the 1800s and it took till almost a hundred years later to get seatbelts.
So I feel like we're, we're just now trying to figure out the seatbelts, you know, for digital devices and, and social media for kids. Although I don't want to be there for all the accidents. So yeah. Yes! For sure. Hopefully it won't take a hundred years. You know, there's a lot of groups actively working on this.
It's really hard to find consensus and move things forward. Yeah. So I know in your book, you talk a little bit about the blueprint, like the blueprint that actually follows us around our reputation on social media. Can you talk a little bit more about that and kids being on devices, what are they, what do they really need to look out for putting out there that could affect them later on in life?[00:21:00]
Yeah. And so, you know, I call it digital footprint or, you know, your digital reputation. And, you know, this is again, it's a hard concept if you're 10 or 11 years old to think of, you know, what you're putting out there actually might matter in the future, you know, so, so this is a ongoing conversation that we can have with our kids.
kids and they get really tired of hearing it, you know, because they see all sorts of stuff out there. So obviously other kids are not complying with this, but, but just, you know, reminding them in as gentle way we can that colleges. And employers actually do look up, , students online before they hire them or maybe accept them into their college.
So, so it's important to think about, who are we and how do we want to, you know, present our public persona, cause it is like. A footprint. Um, you know, unlike a footprint at the beach, it doesn't wash away. It's it's out there and your kids know better than any of us that you can screenshot anything in a second.
You know, screenshot it's there. And so even if it's on Snapchat where it might [00:22:00] disappear, you know, somebody can screenshot that quickly before it disappears. So, so just reminding kids and they get really tired of our. constant reminders, but trying to just help them keep thinking about this and they will mess up, you know, everybody messes up and we can help them try to remove things.
But sometimes it's hard to really clean up something that's been shared and then, recorded and shared widely by other parties. So, so just, you know, making sure they understand that, as they go and it especially becomes important, you know, in high school, when they are starting to apply for colleges and think about their future career.
I mean, it's so scary because exactly they're they're trying things they're doing things and and to have that out there that that one little mistake that one little thing, you know, just That can just put a mark on their reputation or even like you said, applying for colleges or a job. That's really scary.
And the, when I was looking into this, what [00:23:00] I did find is, you know, in most cases it works out really positive for the applicant, you know, so the colleges are actually also, they're finding really positive stuff too, but they're. There have been well known cases where they have actually removed, , acceptance letters because of things they found with, you know, students online.
But for the most part, it's actually an opportunity for them to really showcase who they are and what they love to do. So they can use that to their advantage, too. Okay. Which brings me... Let's talk about some positive aspects of social media. I'm a positive person. I know they're out there.
So what is the most positive thing for ourselves or for our kids to be being online? You know, I think for a lot of kids, it's a way to really connect with others, especially kids from, Some communities they might not find in their own, in their own school or even their own community.
So, so it is helping a lot of kids that might not be finding their people in high school, [00:24:00] find those people. So, so that is a real positive, um, in many ways. It's a great way for kids to express themselves and become Civically engaged and I love the stories of when, these teens actually really collaborate on something and, and it goes viral and it's this huge movement that's coming right out of social media, you know, so they're not 18 yet they can't vote.
However, you know, it has given teens, a voice in many ways because they actually come together and talk and this powerful voice of teens comes through social media. So that's really cool to me, some social activism, some connection. So yes, there is definitely positives and kids really can start to showcase who they are, you know, maybe sharing their Artwork or sharing their music.
So there are certainly a lot of positives out there. And I, I include some stories in the book about that too. You know, just some, some kids that are doing some amazing things online. And sometimes it doesn't even have to be huge. You know, some kids that are just in really [00:25:00] small ways, you know, making their communities better.
You know, maybe just really making sure to give shout outs to people that have done something cool, but maybe got overlooked or, you know, just, you know, just being digital citizens that are lifting others up, by what they're putting out there. So there's a lot of opportunities for kids to really help others too.
Yeah, I love that. And I think my daughter showed me this beautiful video of like someone like playing the violin, a song like a popular song. And then they mixed it with somebody else mixed it with them singing to it. And then someone mixed both of those. So it almost like added on and it became this like nobody knew each other.
This beautiful musical Oh, That was gorgeous. And just so collaborative, a bunch of people who didn't even know each other. So I agree. It can be really, really big, really powerful. So using it in the right way, I guess. Yes. And that's what I talk about in the book is, you know, use this as a [00:26:00] force for good.
You know, we all have this really powerful tool in our hand. That when we get to choose how to use it, you know, so, so just those making a point every day is like, how can I use this tool that's in my hand as, as a way to make the world a little bit better. So tell us about your book and where we can find it.
, it's called the phone book. Stay safe, be smart and make the world better with the powerful device in your hand. And it is available anywhere books are sold. So, Target and Amazon and Barnes and Noble, but you can also probably order it from your local bookseller, which I always love to, try to bring some business to our local booksellers.
Um, yeah, so it's, it's available now and. I wrote it again for more of a preteen, early teen audience for kids that are just really, you know, getting more involved in this space. And it's filled with stories and activities and pictures and those you , I needed to make it fun because, you know, let's face it, I'm competing with phones.
So this had, this had to be a [00:27:00] fun book. Totally. You have to make it fun if you're competing with books, but just because it's called the phone book, they might actually want to read that. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's great. So tell me, what do you really want parents to hear about social media and phones and kids?
You know, I think everybody's journey is so different, you know, so for us, we can just really take note of who our Child or teen is, you know, what are their strengths and what are their vulnerabilities? And, and, you know, just keeping that in mind as they enter, you know, their social lives online. So if we happen to know that maybe our teen girl does have some struggles with body image, you know, we want to, might want to talk to her, like what we talked about earlier, changing her feed, you know, noticing when she's getting in this space.
So, there are positives and there's negatives to everything. And every kid has. Strengths and weaknesses. And they're all coming at this with their own experience. So Let's just stay curious, [00:28:00] you know, and try to try to stay out of judgment and try to really understand how they're using this tool, because it's a huge window into their lives, if we can stay curious and, ask them open ended questions like, Hey, what do you love about that app or gosh, that that seems tricky navigating that group chat?
How does that work? You know, so just coming at this with a really open mind with curiosity, we will get to know, um, this whole experience to them and, you know, probably be a better support for them. And I'm just thinking like, listening to all of that teens, you know, they are not necessarily coming to us with lots of things, at this point they don't necessarily open up so much, but it's almost like the social media can open up a lot of conversations.
It's your teen and that might be one really. good and powerful thing. So like you said, having these open ended conversations and questions, but it really can spark a lot of, a lot of [00:29:00] amazing conversations.
Yeah. Understand their world and it's, it's a different world than the one we grew up in. Totally different, but we're all navigating it together. And I think sometimes our teens are teaching us about it most of the time. 100%. I feel like they're, they are, they are our teachers here. Well, thank you for first of all, all the great work you do.
I mean, these books that you write, I have them all on my website. So if you go to books by our guests, you can totally just see them all. but they're just geared towards teens in a way they understand. And it, that's so amazing. I'm so glad that you are a resource for them. Well, thanks, Lisa. And thank you for having me.
It was really fun to chat with you again.
