Today I am welcoming Katherine Wintsch to the show. Katherine is the founder and CEO of The Mom Complex, where she helps some of the largest companies in the world, such as Walmart, Johnson Johnson, Pinterest, and Chobani develop better products and services for mothers. She's also the author of the popular book, Slay Like a Mother, which was recently named one of the top 10 life-changing self-help books of the year.
So Katherine, thank you for coming on the Real Life Moms podcast. Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here. I know you do so much for moms by just tackling topics like Self-doubt and those negative voices in her head, but I would love to hear a little bit more about your journey first as a mom. So if you could just tell us your experience as a mom and how it really molded you into the work that you're doing [00:01:00] now.
Sure. Well, my story definitely starts a little bit earlier in that from age 15 to 35. So 20 years of my life, I lived with pretty debilitating self-doubt. So I was successful on the outside in terms of good grades, successful career, you know, mother of two, married, but on the inside, I was really hollow and empty and weak.
And, what was happening was I didn't love myself enough on the inside. So I had to get my love from the outside world. My world looked like titles and trophies and accomplishments and performance and perfectionism. So I did that for 20 years and, you know, it got really old and I got very tired.
And so eventually went on a two-year self-help journey, lots of therapy, uh, can't recommend therapy enough, Oprah episodes, self-help books, red wine. [00:02:00] And I learned to love myself on the inside so that I no longer required it on the outside. I, never really imagined that I would be an author, but I felt called to write this book because the tips and the tricks and the ways in which I changed my life were life-changing.
And, I felt selfish kind of keeping them. To myself. So I wrote slay like a mother to help other women destroy their self-doubt. Uh, I love that. And you saying that it started at an earlier age, it's funny. Cause it's like hitting me that I feel riddled with self-doubt like 24 seven. I mean, it's not that much, but, but it feels like that sometimes.
And I feel like I probably as well had it for sure back in high school. I just remember feeling. just not confident. Just I couldn't do those things. I wasn't good enough. All these things. I wasn't smart [00:03:00] enough and in covering up with honesty, humor was my big go-to humor. Um, but as you say it, It's like right now hitting me that that was called self-doubt, you know, that it actually had a name that other people also felt, you know, so that's, it's, it's so important, the work you're doing, because even just this one second, I'm like, wow, I wish I knew that then.
Yeah, it's, that's one of the things I'm most proud of is giving women and young girls are reading my book and really anyone, but giving people the vocabulary to talk about self-doubt and that's where the metaphor of this dragon comes in, of this dragon of self-doubt that just chews up everything you do wrong, nothing you do right, and spits it back in your face, and it's the...
You know, negative self-talk that says you are not good enough and sister enough, wife [00:04:00] enough, daughter enough, you know, whatever. Enough. In the end, the list is endless. And I've just seen it all around the world and it's so universal, but it is possible to stop doing that. It is possible to slay this dragon and I'm living proof, you know.
If I can do it, you can do it. Anybody can do it. . Let's start from the beginning, okay? So, I almost want to know, like, where does self-doubt, like, how, where do the seeds of self-doubt even plant themselves? Like, why do we even have it?
And how can we avoid that in the first place? So seven, my, according to my research, 75% of the time a woman's self-doubt is born during or before adolescence. So three-quarters of the time something happened when in your teen years or before that cut you hard, hurt you deep and it just affects you.
affected your self-esteem. And [00:05:00] perhaps from that moment on, you started questioning yourself and second-guessing yourself and thinking that, you know, you weren't blank enough. And, dragons of self-doubt can be born from, trauma and it can be trauma with a capital T like abuse and neglect and rape and sexual assault and abandonment and terrible, terrible things.
But it also can be born from trauma with the lowercase t of somebody calling you fat or, you know, somebody breaking your heart or experiencing conditional love for the first time in your life that seem like minor infractions, but they just cut you, and they hurt you. And, um, so it's, it's very likely that it's early in life.
And then. , my research shows that that self-doubt just gets exacerbated when you become a mother because now there are just 150 more reasons every day to feel like you suck, you know, and on top of that, there [00:06:00] are these expectations on women and mothers, like by default as a gender, we should be buying and preparing all of the Food in our family's life, you know, it's so the weight of the world's expectations, the double standards, so it's just a lot.
And I think a lot of women are just walking around, just thinking that they suck and, people are just exhausted. And so by. Um, work is to help alleviate, you know, some of that pressure. Yeah. And I wonder how many comparisons, I guess, comparisonism plays a part of this, like seeing other moms doing something just easily, you know, whether that's on social media or a friend, or even when you talk about teens, you know, I, I know my daughter, she's a teen, right?
I have a boy who's a teen, you have teens, and oh my [00:07:00] gosh, they compare all the time. And that, I feel like, creates self-doubt as well. Like, they're just not as good. They didn't get that grade their friend did. Absolutely. I mean, social media, it just, you know, puts this on steroids. And so, yeah, I mean, even as a mother, you know, you're looking through Instagram, you're looking through Facebook and what we forget is that we are looking at people's highlight reels and it's good for people to have highlight reels.
They're not always doing it to show off. Some mothers do it because it's their highlight reel and they need to remember that life doesn't suck, you know, like they need their own highlight reel. So. Sometimes it's genuine, but the
point is that it is a highlight reel and we compare ourselves at our worst to these women at their best, , but we also have a highlight reel.
We have to remember that, you know, we're not always comparing apples to apples, but, , I think social media makes it so much worse, especially for young girls. I mean, my teenage daughter, when. She goes somewhere with a girlfriend and wants their picture taken that [00:08:00] they're going to post on Instagram.
I kid you not, I'll take 97 photos of the same, you know, pose. And they're just like, and it's like, Oh my gosh. Like back when I was growing up like you got it developed and they were like two photos. Like, you know, I mean, this is like 97 of them, but it's like this ultimate curation and sense of perfection.
And, , it really just obviously just weighs on. People make you feel less than totally, totally. And it's hard telling your teen that real is just a highlight, but it's even harder telling yourself, right? And taking the same advice that you're telling your kids.
Because you do see people doing these amazing things and it does come easy to them and you're struggling. And I love, you had a TED Talk, and you talked about a mask that we wear and the [00:09:00] struggles that we actually face. Because that is real. And I know there are also reels out there on social media that are totally...
You know, the funny reels of the mom struggling, right? And we can relate to that, too. So, I almost feel like there should be some more just normal in between real life. It doesn't all suck and we're not all highlights, but those normal moms. Is that just too boring for social media? I don't know. Well,
, I think there's a place for that, but I also think there's a place for that in like personal interactions just with girlfriends and like going out for wine or connecting or going for a walk and just asking like, what are you struggling with? Like just being real, you know, with someone that you're pretty intimate with.
And I just think that's so beautiful to just go for a walk for half hour and both talk about what you're struggling with and don't solve it, or anything, but just. Get it out. I mean, that's the problem is we're just under so much pressure and we are wearing this mask. We're pretending like everything's fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, [00:10:00] you know, and it's not fine.
And we just have to find that release valve, to get some of that pressure out, and talking about it is free, and we all have, a girlfriend that would listen, you know, but it's like you both do it. It's not like you're just dumping on somebody all of your problems. It's like, let's just do this together.
Yes, I have one of my besties, we walk every week, and she happens to be a psychologist. So that's a bonus for me, I'll be honest. So if you do have a friend that's Just a bonus, but we do that. I, I go, I call it venting, but it, I come out of there that one hour, one hour and a half of our walk every week.
It, it rejuvenates me. It revised me. It's my saving grace. Yeah, because we just don't always feel heard and seen, you know, but also like we have to take some ownership, like we don't often open up and then we're pissed when [00:11:00] the people in our lives are not like helping more or doing more, but we don't always ask for it.
Just to be able to give voice to the frustration, just like any frustration, it just kind of dissipates at least some, you know, it kind of lessens the chokehold it has. Yes. If we. Um, you know, I heard somebody say one time that we're as sick as our secrets. And as you know, I just think about this, like stuffing down of emotions in this country, like we don't do anything emotional well, we don't grieve well, we don't struggle well, like it's all just.
Yeah, stuff it down. Sure. And keeping it inside like that does cause our immune systems to break down. It's so unhealthy. It's so unhealthy. Mentally, and physically. And the sad thing is a lot of people are doing it. We're not speaking up because we think that [00:12:00] we're alone, but we're not alone. Like everyone is struggling, everyone.
You know, we all will for the rest of our lives, but we don't have to suffer. And in my book, slay like a mother, I talk about the difference between struggling and suffering, you know, and struggling is brought on by the external circumstances in your life. I have to. Cook dinner, you know, five days a week. I have to exercise.
My mother has breast cancer. Whatever it is, good, bad, but there's struggles and you're never going to not struggle. So don't make the expectation. I hope I can stop struggling because you're going to struggle today. You're going to struggle tomorrow. You're going to struggle every day for the rest of your life because that's the human existence.
But. We dip down into suffering when we yell at ourselves and we beat ourselves up for having those struggles in the first place or for not handling those struggles better. So a struggle is I have to feed my family, five days a week, but [00:13:00] suffering is I suck because they don't eat any vegetables and they're picky eaters.
And I raised these kids and they're going to. Never eat anything other than chicken tenders just this bashing, you know, that goes on. And so, the goal is to struggle. So if you're struggling, that's good job. Like you're on track. I love that you put a positive twist to struggling.
So you have some strategies for women in general. to overcome the self doubt and that negative talk. Can you share some of those strategies with us? Sure. One thing is when it comes to the way you speak to yourself, the first thing is just pay attention to the way you speak to yourself. And if you go to slay like a mother.
com, there's a video on the homepage and it's women saying out loud. The last terrible thing that they said to themselves, and it is atrocious and appalling to watch. I mean, it is [00:14:00] absolutely horrifying what we say to ourselves as women when nobody is listening. And so, but you have to, so we have, we want it.
Stop doing that, the first step is hearing what you're saying to yourself. So, you're hearing the voice and then teaching the voice some manners is what I say. And so I'll give you an example. So, I like to ride the Peloton bike and, , I was at a hotel gym one time and, got up early.
I was on a business trip and rode the Peloton bike and when I was done, I was kind of stretching out and had my hands on the top side of my backside and I grabbed two handfuls of cellulite and the negative voice in my head said, what must that look like? And I was looking around like, can everybody see my cellulite?
And so first of all, I heard it. I heard the voice say, what must that look like? That's a big step to hear it and not completely ignore it. And so the second step was I taught it some [00:15:00] manners and so I said, what this looks like is that I got my ass out of bed and put it on a bike.
That's what this looks like. That's what this is. And so even when you hear the voice, you can have the last word and you don't want to get in a fight with it, cause then you, you know, that just is unnecessary energy, but it's like, you can have the final say, and you can have the point of view.
And the point of view was like, I got out of bed and I did this like good for me. And I can choose to believe that about myself instead of why do you have cellulite? , and why are you a loser? It's kind of simple, but just because it's simple, doesn't mean it's easy. It's very simple.
You hear it and you correct it and you move on and you hear it and you correct it and you move on and it's a practice and you will do it for years. It's like, if you were starting to practice yoga, it would take you a long time to get good, right? If you were learning to practice the guitar, it would take [00:16:00] you a while to get good.
Like this is a practice of. Hearing this voice and correcting it. And the more you practice, the more natural it will become and you'll have to do it less frequently, but it takes time. And I saw that video that I highly recommend people watching it because it's so touching. It's so powerful. So yes, definitely go to the website and watch it.
But what I have to ask is that it's almost like a compliment, like. People who don't take compliments well is kind of like, oh god, I can't hear it or no That's not me or you brush it off that I can imagine it being really hard For people to think of something nice to say to themselves or switching it So I know practice makes perfect.
But what about those people who are just so far? Yeah Down and find the words to say anything positive That's a great point. And I would say maybe you don't have to turn it all the way to [00:17:00] positive. Maybe it's just like a factual, like in my case, it was just a different perspective. Like I wasn't necessarily complimenting myself.
I was like, well, I also got out of bed. It's almost like an alternative point of view, devil's advocate without not elevating it to like a promotion for you. Do you know what I mean? So I think that's one thing, or sometimes when I haven't had something nice to say about something bad I said about myself, one time I just heard it.
And then I just said, like, just kind of out loud, I'd said, well, that's not nice. Like, it was just the acknowledgement that like, I heard it and maybe that's enough. Maybe that's all you can get to right now, but just the acknowledgement of it. And that's not nice, it's at least half the battle, because for most people, this voice is just railroading them all day, every day, and they've never even heard it.
They don't need, you know, they've never even noticed. So maybe just get to neutral, I love that because, um, I do think sometimes when you repeat something out loud, whether you do it [00:18:00] yourself or someone does it for you, you're like, wait a minute, that's not what I meant.
Or that's not what I thought I was saying. Right. So it, that has happened many times in my own life. So yes, I think that repetition is really important. Just, yeah, just hearing it out loud. Yeah. And the other thing is like, can you acknowledge the times for two seconds when you are proud of yourself or when you do think that you look good or something, you know, there's plenty of times we look in the mirror from the worst angle and it's like, Oh my God, you know.
And all of these horrible thoughts and like emotions, but like every once in a while, the other day I was riding and this was just like riding down the road, but like my hair was in the wind. I had these cute sunglasses on and I had like a cute lipstick and like, I just felt good, you know, and just, I just was able to pause and just be like, sometimes there are moments I can, you know, even physically feel good about myself.
You know, even if there's other times where there's lots of cellulite or. [00:19:00] I have to buy bigger pants, you know, and on that point, this is so recent, like I just had to buy bigger pants, like I've gained weight and I went shopping and
I felt like I was going to be kind of down on myself, but every pair of pants that I tried on, which were all a bigger size, I just kept saying to myself, it's okay, it's okay.
And then I would say, , like giving myself a pep talk, I said, well, it's good thing your self worth is not dependent upon your waist size. Like. It's a good thing that I can try my best to see my self worth, even like saying it out loud, to see my self worth is bigger than like the size of my thighs or, you know, the pants.
But I'm literally sometimes have to, like, I just say it's okay. And acknowledge, like, I am bigger and it's okay. It's not like, Oh, I'm going to get this back off. Or like, Oh, it's not like this heightened anxiety. It's like, I'm accepting it. Like, it's like, it's okay. [00:20:00] Yeah. And the thing about bigger pants, honestly, like normally when my pants are too tight, I feel terrible about myself.
That's when I feel heavy, but I put pants that actually fit me and I'm like, I look hot. I look great. I don't care about the size. I look so much better and I feel better. So feel better. Yeah. You're not like cutting off your circulation. Like I feel like things are just like cutting you in the wrong place and it's just like ugh.
But you're right. You go up a size and you're like floating in them. And yeah. Like I must have lost weight. Why are these so loose? I know. Freedom. I can breathe. So I know you've mentioned your research. You've done a lot of research on moms and women. What have you discovered is the most like consistent theme that you keep?
I would say the most consistent theme is women thinking that they suck [00:21:00] and not believing that other women suck or knowing that other women think they suck. It's like a very lonely thing. Like with women right now in particular, it's a very lonely, like I'm struggling, I'm over performing, I'm overworking, I'm overextended, women today are just so exhausted and yet
when they look at other women, they just think they're on ice skates and that they have no problems. And it just goes back to, we're not talking about this stuff enough. , so it's just kind of heartbreaking to be honest, because everyone I talked to, like, I went to Nigeria, Africa last year, like talking about this.
I've been to India, like it's the same around the world and it's just this suffering in silence. From women, that is so unfortunate because everyone's struggling and we're just competing with each other [00:22:00] and reinventing the wheel I'm trying to do my part to. Help the sharing of the struggles.
Yeah. And I think, you know, in some sense, I don't think everyone knows what their outside looks like and what versus what their inside looks like. So meaning that. I have people come up to me saying, Oh my God, you're always so calm all the time. You look like you're calm. You have it together. Nothing phases you.
And I'm like, really? Because inside I feel like it's a three ring circus that's going crazy. I have like panic attacks 24 seven. I'm glad I look so calm on the outside. I don't feel like that. So, I think what we see, we have to remember too, that yes, you're right, each person is struggling, but I think what we're not doing that you're saying is taking the step to ask others how they're actually doing.
[00:23:00] Absolutely. And you know, we also just put words in people's mouths. I, I noticed this in myself. Like I'll say to my son, I'll say you had a good day at school. I mean, it's so interesting how like to force the positive, like sometimes I'm like, what did I just say? It's like this, like, everything's good, right?
, and of course, with a teenager, who's going to respond with every anything other than like, yep, good, you know what I mean? But I've just noticed that of just how we, you know, talk about things, but as a culture, like we're, most people are uncomfortable talking about difficult things.
And My books slay like a mother. I talk about how even with your children, teenagers, you can do it with like teams at work. It doesn't matter. But, talk about like your peak and your pit from your day. So at the end of the day, you shared that what was the best part of your day and what was the worst part of your day.
And, , it's really interesting, to do, especially with children, because then they start to see, and you could do it at dinner or like on a beach vacation. But it teaches them that there [00:24:00] are downsides to your life and your days, and that on Wednesday, you had a part of your day that sucked,
and so it really normalizes. It's the highs and lows of life and it just gives voice to it. So for a child to be able to say, you know, this was my pit, this was my worst part. So it's kind of like a really easy on ramp to talking about the struggles cause we just don't do it well. Yeah. I love that.
We call that high low, you know, tell us a high, tell us a low. I think there's lots of versions of that. . It's funny because as my kids got older in their teens when they probably need it the most, right? I do it less than when I did. Yeah, same. Yeah, same. I love that you're making sure that you're saying you're high and low also, because it is important for our kids to see that we're not perfect and that we have struggles that we're dealing with too, that things [00:25:00] didn't go our way, but we're still going.
You know, getting absolutely, and you can do it in point in time, like sometimes, like after a family vacation, we'll say, like, you know, on the way home, it's like, what was everybody's peak in their pit. And so, even then, it's like, it's okay for there to be a downside of vacation. Like, it doesn't all have to be, you know, happy, happy, joy, joy.
Everything's perfect. I think that's a neat way to just get the conversation going. Yeah.
So tell us a little bit more about Slay It Like a Mother. Tell us about your book and also where people can find it.
Absolutely. So Amazon is probably the easiest, fastest, uh, way to order it. The book is broken down into three sections. The general premise is teaching you to identify and slay this dragon of self doubt. That lives inside of you. So it's very introspective. Like there's exercises you can write in the book.
It's very interactive. It's not a light beach read, it is [00:26:00] some deep work, it's some hard work. The first part is kind of just identifying, like, what, what are dragons and just kind of normalizing them and teaching you that, you know, 80% of women in the United States live with daily self doubt and this dragon.
And so it's normal and the expectations that are placed upon you, et cetera. And then really identifying, like, how yours was born and where it was born and why, you know, we don't spend too much time there, but because we don't want to live in the past, but at the same time identifying when it was born or where, how, um, is important because that moment can have less power over you once you identify it and name it.
And then the crux of the book is seven ways that feeding this dragon of self doubt and how you can stop. So how you stop the mean voice in your head, how you say no to other people and yes to yourself, how you stop comparing yourself to other people, how you take off your mask. It's very, it's not [00:27:00] instructional.
It's it's lighthearted. It's funny. But it's also really anchored with research, but it is like a step by step. Like if you do these things in this book, it will change your life and your perception of yourself. Oh, amazing. Okay. I'm going to ask, because you gave us all those topics. Um, how do you say no?
One way you say no to other people is deciding to say yes to yourself first, so that you do this by putting yourself on your calendar. So, if you go to your calendar tomorrow, it's already full, like there's no chance for, me time or time to, you know, regenerate your, Energy tomorrow, but fast forward two weeks from now, your calendar is not full and put yourself on your calendar and reoccurring meetings, meetings and quotes.
So like, , you said you do walk with your girlfriend. So let's just say that's every [00:28:00] Wednesday night from six to seven, I'm going to, walk with my friend, but it's reoccurring. So in one stroke of the calendar and by you're deciding for yourself. You're gonna do this every Wednesday night, and then it might be Tuesday morning, you're gonna go to a yoga class.
It doesn't, also, doesn't have to be healthy. It could be, I'm gonna go get drunk with my girlfriends once a month, , you know? But the important thing is to put it on there and reoccurring meetings and so there for, you're on your calendar and then when everything else is requested of you and somebody says, Hey, can you do this Wednesday night?
And you say, no, I can't, but I can do it Thursday night. You know, because you're already on your calendar and I promise you all this stuff still fits like you put yourself in there and then you're still going to go to the dentist, you're still going to get your haircut, you're still going to go to all your meetings, you're still going to take your kids to the doctor, it all still fits.
And I think I'm just gonna [00:29:00] put myself on my calendar to hang out with myself like just be like just do Do what you want. Yeah, I mean, it's our lives revolve around our calendar So like there's no reason oh and then here's something else that might help people is that If, if you look at your calendar and there's no time for you, what that means is that you believe that other people deserve your time more than you do.
That's what you believe that your children, your partner, your job, whatever, that that is more important. They are more important than you are in terms of time. And so that also has to be examined because you can do the calendar trick is like a band aid and it is. But at some point you have to address, like, why are you not making time for yourself?
Why do you not believe that you are worthy of recharging who told you that you always have to hustle in [00:30:00] order to be loved. And so, , but the calendar will help you in the short term, but then also in the longterm, because then it's just. a reminder and it's built in. Yeah, you have to do the self work really of why don't you put yourself first?
And I can probably list off a ton of those answers, you know, like, Oh, it feels selfish. You feel guilty. You've got like lots of those things. Right. But, but really that. Is my own story and my own recording in my head that's going off And not actually if I were to say to my family Hey, i'm gonna go sit in my room and do nothing but like read a book and nobody bother me They'd be like bye, you know, They wouldn't think any of those things I would be playing in my head.
No, but so here's one thing that you have to know is that you have this narrative in your head that if I do this I'm selfish. But you need to know that that narrative has been planted in your mind [00:31:00] by men, by the media, by people who benefit from you having no boundaries and not spending time on yourself.
I just mean in women in general, and so you didn't just wake up and think that it was a bad idea for you to spend time on yourself that it's selfish, you know, like that is the, the culture is that if women take time for themselves, it is selfish, they should be this self sacrificing.
Give up everything they have, and um, those narratives are so outdated, but we have internalized them so much as human beings. But at some point we have to wake up and say, okay, the people who created those narratives or created the lives that the narratives were built off, they're dead. Like, those people are gone, and this is a different world in so many ways and just know that it's bigger than you.
You didn't decide to just [00:32:00] believe that. That was in the air. You breathed it. And it's also what I saw, you know, growing up, my mom was definitely there for us, put herself second. It's what I knew to do as well. And so I'm going to say, and to your, all this stuff you just said, it's also breaking the cycle for your kids.
Because if they're seeing you take time for yourself, well, that's going to allow them to know that that is okay. And they can do it too. And we're breaking that cycle. Absolutely. And I've even told my daughter that before, like when she was like, last minute on a Friday night, can you drive me somewhere and, you know, sit in a parking lot for two hours and bring me, you know, and I was like, no.
And I said, I know you will not understand this right now at all, but I hope on some level you're learning that as a mother, you can say no, that if on a Friday night, you don't want to give, three hours of your time. In this way that, like, that's okay [00:33:00] that you're a person too and, she will never remember it, but it was a nice moment to say, just to realize that, yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be that way.
Yeah. Yeah. Not just saying no, but teaching her like this is good for you because in the future you can do it too. Yeah. Yeah. So what message would you like moms to hear today? I want moms to know that you're so much stronger and more powerful than you know, and you've just forgotten it because you've just been beaten down by messages and media and people and negative self talk, but that.
You can slay this dragon of self doubt and, and I'm living proof. I'm just a woman from Richmond, Virginia. You know, I didn't wave a magic wand it didn't just disappear. I did the hard work and the homework to [00:34:00] understand who I am and who I want to be and, um, and what drives me and just tuning out or kind of muting some of the external, sources.
And so the point is, it's possible , and I always say that. , you still will have to deal with the chaos around you, you can't change the external world, you know, um, there will always be chaos around you, but it's much easier to deal with when you're not also dealing with the chaos inside of you, and so it will just be one less frontier that you're fighting on, and It's just a much better way to be.
Yeah, I love that saying. And exactly, if you're more grounded and there's less noise inside you, you can then choose what you want to do with the noise outside you and just be in a better place to deal with it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you so much [00:35:00] for coming on the show. Your work is incredible. I am going to highly recommend this book to everybody so that they can start doing the work.
And I'm going to emphasize that it is work and it does take time and to have the patience to do it. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks for having me, Lisa.
