Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Real Life Momz podcast. I'm your host, Lisa Foster, and Real Life Momz is all about connecting moms through meaningful conversations and powerful stories. I believe that moms are so much more than just moms. We each have our own unique strengths and superpowers, and my strength is inspiring others. In this podcast, we wanna help empower you to tap into your unique strengths and become the best version of yourself while teaching your kids to do the same. You will hear real-life stories of moms just like you, who have unlocked their potential and now wanna share their wisdom with you.
So let's get started on this week's episode. And this week, we are joined by Dr. Elizabeth Arleo. She's a board-certified radiologist specializing in breast and body imaging, a professor of radiology at well Cornell Medical College, and an attending radiologist at New York Presbyterian Hospital.
She's the author of First Eat Year Frog and Other Pearls for Professional Working Mothers and is here today to share strategies to help working moms achieve more balance. So let's welcome Elizabeth to the show.
Hi, Elizabeth. I am thrilled to have you here today on the show. I have to say, I actually stalked your website a little bit and I lived in Manhattan. Yes, I did. I lived in Manhattan for a while myself. I'm, I'm originally from New York, and I saw that you ran the marathon back in 2015, and that was my first marathon ever.
And also, yeah, and also it's interesting because that was also the first time I ever realized that like, a normal person can do something extraordinary. So for me, that was very powerful, the marathon. So I love seeing it on your website, <laugh>.
Yes. It is amazing how lay normal people like us can compete on the same course as world-elite athletes. And I feel like the marathon is one of those few mm-hmm. <affirmative> athletic events where it's possible and it's, it's really awe-inspiring.
It is; it's so inspiring. I mean, for me, it also made me feel like, wow, if I can finish this, what else could I do? Right?
Yep.
So I love that about you. I love that you are helping other moms through your passion, which is helping them achieve like work-life balance. So not only you're a mom of three kids and a radiologist and an author, but you know, your passion is this work-life balance and really helping working moms achieve this. So I'm so glad to have you on the show today.
Thank you so much for the invitation. Maybe
We could just talk a little bit about you and let the audience get to know you a little bit more and what inspired you to help moms find this actual balance between work and life, which I'm still looking for, by the way. <laugh>,
Of course. That that's who I'm too. And that's, um, you know, my, my book explores what I, what I've learned, what I'm learning, where I am right now. I am, um, a professor of radiology at Weill Cornell Medical Center in New York City where I practice breast and body imaging. I'm also the editor-in-chief of radiology journal called Clinical Imaging. And as we've alluded to, I am, um, a new author just out with my first book called First Eat Your Frog and Other Pearls for Professional Working Mothers.
And I was really thrilled that it came out on March 8th, international Women's Day, very fitting, really, um, you know, it, uh, shares sort of my journey and the sort of the top things I've learned and am learning still. It's definitely work in progress, as you said, in the 15 years since I first became a professional working mother. Uh, I have three kids, uh, ages 15, 11 and six. So all ages in stages and I'm constantly learning from them.
Wow, okay. You wear lots, lots of hats. You were wearing <laugh>, so, but as yeah. As a working mom yourself, like did you struggle with this work-life balance
Absolutely. Um, I started during covid, you know, I was working remotely but possible in radiology sometimes, and I was trying to contribute as much as possible by, as giving as many lectures as possible. That's part of being like at an academic institution. And I found that I was being asked to give not only more and more talks about screening mammography, um, which is my clinical area of expertise, but also about work-life balance issues. Because obviously during the pandemic it was a particularly challenging, uh, time for professional working mothers with work, you know, remote from home, school from home.
And no longer was it, you know, the second shift, um, like Arlene H Child talks about where you, you work and then come home to a second shift of the family. It was like all going on at once and I was going through that as well.
And so what I started noticing is that in these requested talks about work-life balance, started a mentorship program for women in radiology at my institution. Um, because radiologists are actually only, only about 25% are practicing radiologists or female. And so in, in giving or getting requests for these talks, I noticed that I was often given the same, you know, eight, you know, main messages over and over again in, in different variations, even if the audience was, you know, different on medical students, uh, attendings, whatever.
And so one time after giving this talk, you know, afterwards, my daughter Sophia, who was 12 at the time, she was like, maybe you should really write a book. And I said, what would it be about? And she's like, you know how you do it. Um, you know, being a doctor and a mother, everything you've learned since you had me
<laugh>, oh my God, so brilliant. These kids, I tell you, they come up and they just stick a mirror in your face and shine a light on what you should be doing. Right?
Absolutely. Absolutely. And you think they don't hear what's going on unless you're directly talking to them, but they're aware of what's going on and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this is really the, um, impetus. And so I, based on lectures, um, for the basis of my, of my book and I been through the topic because every, I have a longstanding interest in time management and organization, which has just increased, um, every time I've had another child. And as I seek to achieve, you know, the best I say work-life balance in quotation, cuz it conveys, effectively conveys the topic, but I'm not wild about the term because it implies that, you know, work is, is separate from life and I I sort of prefer more work-life integration, all that.
That's not per, that's not, you know, exactly Right. Either hopefully that you choose work that you really enjoy and it, it doesn't, it's an integral part of your life and brings you so much intellectual and professional satisfaction.
So I love that. That's so true. Work is so much integrated into our life, right? It is part of our life and sometimes it can even be part of our identity, which isn't always, it's good and not good depending on what, what it is, right? So yeah. So there's a lot of meshing there for sure. Okay, so you wrote this book First Eat Your Frog and Other Pearls for Professional Working Moms. Right? But, okay, what is first Eat Frog? Cause I look at this title and I'm like, I, I don't know what that is. What is that
<laugh>? Yeah, absolutely. So the title of the book comes from a quotation attributed to Mark Twain who said, if it's your job to eat a frog, it's best to do it first thing in the morning. And if it's your job to eat two frogs, it's best to eat the larger one first. And I've had this quotation hanging in my office wall for years. And, um, so it eventually, I, I didn't know it when I posted years ago, but it became the title of of the book. It, what it means is that, you know, I think it's pretty straightforward that it's important to do the most important thing as early as possible in the day or week or month or whatever time period you're dealing with.
And how does this help us as professional working mothers? I, I think in two ways. Um, one, it it sets you yourself up for success because, you know, come what may the most important thing has been taken care of.
And two, I think it also like lessens the mental load where the mental load is that conversation that's going on, uh, you know, in the back of your brain, I have to do this, I have to do this. All the organizing tasks, um, that one does to take care of your, your life and the lives of those who are dependent on you. So the example I like to use is, and also get in a little about women's health is that, um, as a breast radiologist, the recommendation for from the American College of Radiology and Society of Breast Imaging is for annual screening, mammography starting at 40 and continuing for as long as a woman is in good health.
And yet screening is can often be anxiety provoking, even for breast imager, uh, like myself. So I like to try to schedule my annual screening mammogram as early as possible in the month or week or day that I'm having it done to, you know, set myself up for success, take care of myself physically. If you don't do that, you can't take care of, you know, your, your kids and your other loved ones. And also just to lessen the, uh, the, the anxiety of, of waiting for it. So mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, that's an example of a first eat your frog.
Yeah, that totally makes sense. First of all, I'm gonna congratulate myself because I've made all my doctor appointments this month. Like, I'm like getting going to the dentist, I'm getting an annual checkup, I already did my mammogram. Um, but I'm like putting them all in there because it is true. We do need to take care of ourselves even though it's no fun. But I'm thinking of like the list that I start to grow because I am a list maker and I feel like a lot of things are important. Yes. You know, so I'm like writing all these things down.
How, how do you even organize the most important things? Like what is your frog sometimes I don't know what my frog is. I think everything, uh, is my frog.
Yes. Yeah, totally. And you, you know, you could also think about your, what about your professional frog or your personal mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, however you organize things Well in the book. Um, I do get into like the longest chapter and actually the, the basis in, in the lecture that I was giving, uh, that, that formed the basis for this book. I talk about my three top three resources for planning. I'll state them in brief and then come back to your question. Um, the top three planning resources that I've been using for years are, one, getting Things Done by David Allen.
Um, it's a methodology and time management productivity. Uh, method two, I still use, you know, a full, uh, a paper planner. It's called a Full Focus Planner. And it comes 90 day increments. So like each planner is a quarter of the year. And three, I put it all together with, um, the lower no cost app to-do list in which you, you can add in, you know, dates that you wanna start working on your to-do items.
Um, and I also put in estimates for how long I think it's gonna take, um, to also set myself up for success. So I think that part of what I talk about is setting annual goals. And what the full focus planner does really nicely is that it asks you to commit to no more than two or three of those goals within a quarter. And that's very helpful because you can really, that those are the two most important things you're focusing on. And it also allows you to get more things done across the course of a year than if say you, you know, made eight to 12 resolutions and you know, most people by January 30th if they've, they've followed off the horse, which is understandable.
So this, this sort of allows me to focus on what the most important things I'm going to focus on each quarter.
And then those can help me decide what the most important things I'm gonna focus on each month and week and day and sort of like a trickle down effect. Obviously there's all the little minutiae like, you know, call your mother and you know, pick up, um, milk and all those little one action items. But when I plan my day or by week, I look and I think like what are the most important, what is the most important thing mm-hmm. <affirmative> I need to get done for myself, for my family, for my career. And like again, if I get those things done that then that's a successful day.
It, that's a big change for me. Like mm-hmm. When I was mm-hmm. Younger it would be as try to get as many things done as possible. Right.
And, and that's interesting because lately I, you know, I would have a calendar and I would make a list for just that day say of all the things including milk and calling my mom. You know, they're all on there. Yeah. But lately I've been looking at my list and going, just pick two. Yeah, just pick two because two is doable, <laugh> for the day. Right. What are the most important two and what doesn't really make a big difference today? And so yeah. I love that idea and I love having a little less on the plate cuz I think some of these things we write down at least not necessary at that time right away.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> sort of like the thing that, you know, if it's unclear what your frog is, <laugh>. Yeah. I feel like there are multiple frogs. Like just looking at that list and saying like, what is like the number one thing, if it was done then I would feel like lighter I would breathe it aside. I'd really like, oh, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> that, that, that's probably a frog.
Right? Something that's been over your head causing you anxiety, even like, get that off your plate. You don't need that one to be hanging over. I like that. So, okay, so in this book you have these pearls of wisdom. Can you maybe share some of those pearls with us?
Yes, absolutely. So, um, I guess my three favorite pearls are First Eat your frog, which we just talked, talked about mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, second, think about time in 168 instead of 24 hour chunks. And I guess my third favorite one is, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I could talk a little bit about that last one first since it's a say that some people may have heard of.
Yeah, sure. Don't
Let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Um, is a quotation actually by Voltaire, who was a French philosopher in the 17 hundreds. And I guess he is, he is famous because his words of wisdom, you know, are just as true today as they were back then. And this is a quotation I do not have hanging in my office where I see patients because in patient care it's one area that I still strive for as close to, you know, humanly perfection a as possible. Um, but aside from patient care where I still strive for, you know, for per perfection, um, what this quotation means to me as a recovering perfectionist, hopefully, is that I strive to be a Sater instead of striving for perfection.
So mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what does this mean? Like, I try to, if there's a task at work or at home, I try to set criteria for it.
And when it's set, when those criteria met, like I'm done, I'm satisfied, I'm finished. So, you know, how how does this, you know, for example, if I'm looking for a restaurant for a date night with my husband, I might, you know, decide I'm looking for a good me, a good Mexican restaurant with a, you know, good happy hour within mile radius mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So once I hit those criteria, like I'm done, I book it, I remind myself, you know, not to keep scrolling through, uh, looking for the perfect restaurant because that perfect restaurant doesn't exist.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I feel like how does this help us as professional working mothers? Well, because perfection is not humanly attainable, it's important to remind ourselves of this because, you know, if you're sri striving for something that's not attainable, then this can contribute to feelings of anxiety or depression. So don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Right. And, and honestly, if you keep striving for perfection, like that restaurant scenario, you're never going to eat. Right? Yes. Cause there, because there's no restaurant, right. That's perfect. So you're never gonna find one I really live by this, I should say, is that I am kind of like, I just wanna keep moving and when I feel stuck, I get irritable. So when I look for perfection, I'm always like, oh, it's done good, let's go, let's move, let's do this. You know, like, I need to keep going. And so what I found with that is messy is really relatable and it keeps you moving forward.
And when you keep working on that perfect piece, not only is it not relatable because people, you know, like no, who relates to someone who's perfect. I mean, that's hard. Right? And you haven't gone anywhere because you're never gonna hand in that thing or do that thing because you're never gonna reach that goal. So yeah. So I am very much, yes, let's just keep moving forward. It's okay, it's messy and let's go, but it took me about, you know, 45 years to figure that out. So yeah.
Yeah, I think that's, it's so much more of a healthier way to live. And as you said, it's not, it's not attainable, it's not good to set those standards for yourself or for others. It's not good for interpersonal relationships or work relationships. And so one of the like practically, how can you do it if do this, if you're, you know, you tend towards perfection. You know, one thing I read and found helpful was, can you try like lessening your standards even just slightly in, in a, you know, sort of a low risk type setting. Um, you know, so if you asked to make a PowerPoint it work, just couple slides, not a big whole formal end of the year, whatever, you know, set a timer, decide how long you're gonna spend on it, spell check it and then submit it.
Like once you've hit the criteria for the presentation and it's spell checked, you're done. Like you, you don't need to go searching for perfection. The fonts and the right picture, the done is better than perfect as Cheryl Sandberg put it more succinctly. And yeah. You're living and which is this so much healthier for yourself and your children. And I'm, I think this is the quotation I self-talk to myself the most.
I love it. I totally relate to it. And I totally think it's great for our kids to see too, because then they don't have to feel perfect either. And that's so important because that's so hard, so hard to live up to.
Yes. So important.
Yeah. I have a funny story as you're talking about like, just like done is better than perfect. Okay. Yeah. So being on social media with the podcast, right? I had gotten up early, it was like 5:00 AM and this is this like viral little TikTok thing going on where, you know, people are in these big blankets and they're hopping down and they say, this is me going to do blank. So I was like, oh, I'm gonna do that. It's 5:00 AM I don't really know what's going on. I have this blanket over me and I'm going to the music of like, this is me going to get coffee at 5:00 AM to watch my daughter's dance competition. And it's funny that I ended up sending it out and I misspelled competition.
It says like, dance completion, it's something really weird. And I didn't like check it. My husband's like, oh my God, you should change it. Okay. That is my only video that's totally viral. Now is it viral because they spelled the word wrong? I don't know, but it's like over 30,000 like <laugh> views or something crazy. And I'm like, and it's, and it's wrong. It's does, it doesn't even have the words spelled right <laugh>. So it's so interesting, right. Like just it's done. There you go. So you never know, right?
Things can happen or people can relate to something or other people aren't really reading it. I don't know. <laugh>,
No, I think it's relatable that people that you know, who are role models, who are, you look up to, who have their own podcasts and their own practice and children, everything. Yes. We all make mistakes to a human and it's just healthy to see that we all do.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. All right. Now you said one of your pearls that you like too is time management. Tell me about that <laugh>, because I feel like this is a big area time management. Yes,
Totally big area. And um, you know, so I, this this pearl, the importance of thinking about time in 168 instead of 24 hour chunks is an idea I first learned about from Laura Vanderkam who's a writer and a mother of five. Uh, so she knows a lot about, uh, time management and basically the equation is that we all have 24 hours a day, seven days a week, equaling 168 hours per week. So the math is that even if you work 50 hours a week, which is more than many and sleep eight hours, sleep 56 hours a week, which would be eight hours a night, which sounds, you know, absolutely luxurious for most, uh, professional working mothers.
Mm-hmm.
<affirmative>,
That still means that you have over 60 hours after work and sleep for everything else you want to do. So to say, you know, oh, I don't have time for that is not entirely accurate, it just may mean that, okay, well that's just not a priority. That's fine. We all have different priorities and in terms of time management, taking the time to intentionally think about what your priorities are can be really helpful because you see that, you know, there are 60 hours a week to do the things that are important for you with your family and your friends, you know, your community and for yourself.
So having those 62 hours, I mean, that just seems so nice, but I, I agree. I love looking at it. I'm just like writing down these numbers now cuz it makes me feel good. Yeah. Um, <laugh> good. But it's interesting because when you think of like 24 hours, right? And of course you're sleeping for some of those, um, the day goes by when you're home from work, it's like, oh, it's just like this little darkness of time where I'm already tired and nothing's, you know, happening that I like looking at the number of 62. It makes me feel like inspired that I can do more and do something with that.
Now do you have any recommendations of like, not to lose those hours, should I say? Yeah, <laugh>, does that make sense? Because I can sit down after work and after mommying and before I know it, I'm wrapped into some Netflix thing I never wanted to be wrapped into. Yeah. But four hours of my 62 hours are gone and like Yeah. How do you not get sucked in to, to those type of Yeah. Detours I guess
I like that detour. Um, yeah, there's so many potential de detours out there. Um, and we all have their detours which are more compelling than others. Um, but one of the Laura Vanderkam talks about is, you know, we can't know, um, where our times go, our time goes unless we track it. So she advocates like tracking your time for a week in 15 or 30 minute increments and then, you know, totalling it up and sort of to see basic large categories where most of your time is doing it.
What I like to do with that is to use a Google Excel spreadsheet and color block out all the things I wanna do in 168 hours. So the first thing I do is I start with like graying out my blocks for, and this is like an ideal week. And so then I know at any given time, like what I think I should be doing.
Do I always do it? No. But I'll block out, you know, eight hours of sleep, um, seven days a week. I will block out, you know, in darker gray cuz that is the only thing I'm doing. I block out in dark gray all my clinical time where I'm taking care of patients for the week and then, you know, I'll block out commuting time and I will block out in the af in the evening after I get home like one on one time with each one of my kids like in a different color. So I know it's like seven o'clock. Okay, I'm gonna focus on the, the six year old. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> eight o'clock. I'm focused on the middle one, nine o'clock I'm focused on the 15 year old and by 10 o'clock I'm totally done.
Like I'm getting into bed and, and collapsing mm-hmm. <affirmative> and then I really go sleep and then I see there's a lot more white space on the weekend to do, you know, things.
So I can spend, you know, take two or three hours to have a a, a date night with my husband because two or three hours is only, you know, a drop in the bucket of 60. So I think about intentionally thinking through um, an ideal week and what all those components would have including for me, exercise is really important like physically and emotionally just to feel sound. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I have time to exercise like three or four hours a week because again, that's only three or four hours, you know, at out of 60 it lessens the pressure to think about time in 168 hours because whereas you can't have it all or do it all within 24 hours.
When you think about time in the elongated, you know, 168 seeing that and just the math of 60 plus hours is it really lessens the pressure.
Yeah. And I love how you do the block time. Now granted I don't think I'm gonna be color coding anything <laugh>, but I love that
You do not for everyone <laugh>.
I love that you do, but I love that you talked about block time because I think that's huge. You can get really messy with time where you're trying to squeeze everything in together. Right. And I know for me, I get very, I feel very guilty when I don't spend enough time with the family. Um, but I still have work to do. So I've learned that like, okay after three o'clock I'm not doing any more of my private practice work. You know, I don't do podcasting until after seven o'clock or you know, so that, this way between four and you know, six o'clock is all about my kids.
And, and it makes a difference because you are fitting everyone in and it's not getting all messy. I'm not trying to finish work notes while also trying to catch up on my kids' day. Like really blocking that time and yeah, making it quality I think is so important and so helpful.
Yes. Then it makes it easier not to get, you know, sucked in by White Lotus or whatever the, you know, the series you're watching of the week.
Yes. The Netflix. Yeah. For you implementing some of these tools, what do you think has been the best tool that you've implemented and how that kind of helped your, you and your family?
I think the top three tools again, uh, I'll say it's hard for me to choose one cuz I use all three of them. I feel like there's, again, number one, getting things done by David Allen and I have no financial ties to any of these. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, number two, um, the full focus planner by, by Michael Hyatt and company. And number three Todoist, which is available free or no cost, um, free or low cost on, on uh, the app store. So I feel like there's no full one full proof method, but I have found, and that using all these three methods together over a number of years has helped it be so that, um, I am like less likely to drop the ball even if I don't hit, um, you know, every um, you know, planning session that I want for myself or every item on it.
Sort of like it's, it's this three tripartite and just works well. General getting things done is sort of like a more a methodology or, and it's sort of, uh, it's more bottom up approach. Um, the full focus PR planner is a more top-down approach as I, uh, you know, alluded to like making annual plans, which trickle down into quarterly, um, goals, which trickle down dictate your monthly goals, weekly goals and, you know, daily big three goals. And then to do is I use it to tie it all in together. So like anything I'm trying to do, I can organize by project, which is like the getting things done methodology.
Um, and I put down like the data I want to start working on it and I also put in like my time estimate for how long I think it's gonna take. So then, you know, if I'm trying to decide what are the three most important things I need to do today for myself, my, my family and, and my career, I can look at what's, you know, scheduled and see if I really do have, you know, the space to get things done at the time doesn't line up.
Then I need to, um, adjust accordingly to try to set myself up for success. And if I don't hit all those three things then you know, it's not a failure of a day. I just try to understand like what happened was my, you know, did I try to assign my too much to myself? Was that really just not realistic? And then I can learn that as a lesson as I go into the next day.
By you being, it seems like you're very organized <laugh>, you know, listening to all these different ways. So by you being this organized, how do you feel this kind of overflows into your own family?
I see my 15 year old, um, I think they're all pretty organized, but they pick and choose from what I do. And not everything is applicable when you're, you know, 15 or 11 or obviously six. And I again, try to don't let the perfect be the enemy of good. They're trying to figure it out themselves. Like, what's worked for me that won't necessarily work for them. I don't wanna, I impose it's not that I found the one and true way, this is what, you know, works for me in this stage of, um, my career and my, my, um, kids.
But I think that they, I think people know what's going on and what to expect and for kids. I think that's helpful.
Yeah. I think structure is is s that's coming. Yeah. Structure and that's such a good point because by you having this kind of organization too, they do know what to expect and that can alleviate any fears or anxiety of like what's next as well. So that's probably really nice for your family.
Yeah.
So where can listeners find you?
Yes, thank you. Um, I am on, uh, Twitter at Dr. Arleo, um, and Instagram with a similar handle. my book is available on amazon.com and bookshop.org and just Friday I finished, um, narrating self narrating the books. So it will be available to listen to on audible.com and wherever you get your audible books, uh, probably by the end of the, the month. So I'm excited about that. I I just love that experience. It was so different.
And John Marshall Media, big shout, shout out. They did an amazing job, so.
Oh, that's awesome. I love audio books. I feel like I can do so many tasks while listening to a book or driving or whatever. So yeah, I get a lot of, I'm gonna air quotes reading done Yes. <laugh> while doing other things through Audible. I love it. Um,
Yeah, for sure. And this is, I said to my agent, I said, this is exactly the kind of book that I personally would, would listen to first, uh, on Audible. So I wanna get it out there. Cause I imagine there are other, you know, professional working mothers who are commuting or folding laundry and or exercising and this is how I would listen to this content and I wanna make it available for others this way too.
Right. And it sounds perfect for that because that's who you're targeting, so that's amazing. Yeah. So is there anything else you want the listeners to know?
Just thank you very much for the opportunity to talk about my first book and I, if anything that I've said, you know, resonates with you, then I hope you'll go ahead and check out the book either in a a card copy or audible. And if you, you like it, please feel free to leave a couple thoughts on Amazon. Um, hopefully it'll help get it into the hands of other professional working mothers and um, ease the challenges that we all face.
Uh, yes. Yes. Well thank you. Thank you for sharing. Well, for first of all, writing the book, you know, because I think this is a topic that a lot of us need help on <laugh> and it just giving us some of your pearls of wisdom. I know there's eight of 'em, so we learned three. So there's a lot more to read about or listen to, and I think this can really benefit our audience. So thank you for coming.
Thank you so much again for the opportunity.
Thank you for listening to this episode When life throws you off balance. Remember these tips. Eat your frog first, analyze how you're spending your time throughout the week, and don't let perfection get in the way of your progress. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with your friends and subscribe to the Real Life Momz podcast.
